Ahead of her swearing in as Greens Senator for Victoria, Senator-elect Lidia Thorpe spoke to Green Agenda editor, Felicity Gray, about the activist history that propels her, her plans for the Senate, and decolonising green politics.
Felicity Gray: Congratulations on your recent pre-selection as a Greens Senator for Victoria. Very exciting.
Lidia Thorpe: Thank you.
Felicity Gray: It’s quite a remarkable time to be stepping into federal politics. What do you see as your key priorities as you take up your seat?
Lidia Thorpe
Well, I have a few. There’s so much to do. There’s so much unfinished business, I don’t know what they’ve been doing in there all this time. But, you know, we’re still facing a climate catastrophe. The injustice against this country’s First People continues to climb in terms of the rates of incarceration, removal of children, deaths in custody, just the whole systemic racism that we have to deal with that continues. There is no difference there. And the inequality all round that people face in this country daily is a real issue and something, because of my background, and how I was raised, it’s not fair. It’s not fair. Why should we have this mass inequality and this class kind of system in this country where people are left behind? There’s enough for everybody here. People need to learn to share and look after one another. So, addressing inequality.
Obviously Treaty is a big one for me. And addressing the pandemic that’s gone off the boil at the moment because we’re dealing with COVID, but the pandemic of climate change is huge. People are caught up on COVID and rightly so, but we’ve also got this other pandemic still lingering in the background that seems people have forgotten about and we need to bring that back to the forefront and remind people that this is still there, it’s not going away. We can’t go back to the new normal. We have to create an environment and a nation that addresses all of these issues because we’ll continue to struggle like we are today if we don’t change the way we do business in this country.
Felicity Gray
Absolutely. You mentioned a Treaty being an important part of that program for change. A lot of people have advocated to focus on the Voice to Parliament proposal that was in the Uluru Statement from the Heart as a priority and that it should come before a treaty process. I know that you have a different take on that. Why do you see a Treaty as so important, and why does it need to come prior to a voice to Parliament?
Lidia Thorpe
Well, we’re the only Commonwealth country in the world that does not have a Treaty with its First People. I think that’s a blight on this nation’s identity. I believe that this nation really struggles with its identity. I think it’s going through an identity crisis. It’s freaking out because Black Lives Matter actually happens in our own country, right here. The closing the gap targets, you know, new targets every year, still the same, no change. We need fundamental change in this country. And Aboriginal people need to feel that they’re a part of this nation’s identity instead of being the issue or the problem in this country. And there is so much to learn from Aboriginal people that would benefit everybody.
So I think Treaty, for me, is a way that we can end the war on this country’s first people. And we can negotiate a way forward. Yes, it could include constitutional recognition, but the people have to decide that. And the way the Uluru Statement came about, you know, they talked about 200 people who had consensus. However, there are a lot more than 200 Aboriginal people in this country that did not get a say, still don’t have a say. And if we’re going to go into the Australian Constitution, which is part of the colonial project, then I think we need to settle the country first. The Australian constitution was imposed on us. It’s not something we agree to. And it’s the law of the coloniser. And, and it’s over top of the oldest law on the land, on Earth. Right here. And it’s Aboriginal law. So I think that for us to be going into the Australian Constitution prior to settling this country, it doesn’t make sense. It just doesn’t make sense.
The Constitution has never been set up to benefit Aboriginal people. So having a voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution, what is that? I mean, really, what is that? That is an advisory group that the government set up, which they’ve done time and time again, they will choose who they want to advise them, and then they will choose whether they take the advice or not. Well that’s not good enough. We’re past that. It’s time for fundamental change and we, through a Treaty, can really strengthen the identity of this country once and for all, so that we can all celebrate together. I want to get to a point where we are one nation. But at the moment, we are so divided, the racism is so rife, that we need a mechanism that brings people together. And I believe a Treaty will do that.
I believe that the way we do that is we go back to the reconciliation process of twenty years ago, under the Howard Government. We do it that way. It was a very good, comprehensive consultation that went around this nation to both black and white communities to talk about how we can reconcile this country. The ultimate outcome of that process was this country was too racist to reconcile. But I think we’ve come a bit of a way after twenty years, and I think people are ready for this conversation now, and that non-Aboriginal Australia need to start thinking about what they would like to see in a Treaty, start those conversations at the grassroots level in their local communities.
Do you want to celebrate the statues of murdering thieves that, you know, we have to walk past on a daily basis? Do we want to see Aboriginal people experience the poverty and poor health and poor education and incarceration and the removal of children? Are you happy to see that and happy for that to be happening in your community? If not, how do we address this? And I think it needs to be local solutions from local people that decide how they can move forward as part of a Treaty process.
Felicity Gray
This is something that you’ve been fighting for for a long time, both as an activist and as a state MP, and also something that your family has been fighting for for a long time. I know that you grew up in a family of activists. Activist politics and parliament are, on the face of it, powered by very different theories of change. Do you see or experience a tension between being an activist and an MP? And why do you see it as important to have activists in Parliament?
Lidia Thorpe
We need more activists in Parliament, particularly Blak ones, grassroots. We need people who know what’s going on, on the ground. You know, I never liked being labelled an activist. It was a label white people gave to me, in fact, and it has a negative kind of tone to it, or negative feel to it. And I often would say, you know, ‘I’m not an activist’. I’m a sovereign Blak woman that is fighting for the rights of my people and fighting for the rights of my land. Yeah, we activate people through that, but the connotation of being labeled an activist is, to mainstream Australia, quite a negative brand. And I think if we look at parliamentarians, there’s a lot of good parliamentarians out there that are fighting for their community. They’re fighting for their local environment. Why are they not being branded an activist, and the Blak girl that comes along is branded an activist? I think that there’s racist undertones there also.
I think it’s a way to not only attack me, but it also puts people off who are like me, those young people out there, women of colour or Aboriginal women, that see that and they don’t see themselves as an activist, but they see themselves as caring for their community or their country. And it puts a fear in people that they’re going to be branded or labeled. So I don’t feel a tension of being an activist and a politician. I think that you’re going to get reality – you’re going to get the real stuff coming out of my mouth, as it is, how it is. People sometimes feel a bit uncomfortable about that. And that’s good. Because there’s no nice way to say stop killing Aboriginal people. Stop taking our children away. I mean, how nice do you want me to say it? Just stop. And if that means I’ve got to be branded an activist, well, so be it. And we need more of them. We need to decolonise this country, so that everybody has a say, and particularly those that are being left behind. Our most vulnerable communities. Our First Nations people, they’re the ones that need a voice. Women in this country need a voice and the colonial structure, as it is, is so used to oppressing those voices and shutting down those voices, that that’s the element that comes out when someone like me comes along.
Felicity Gray
I want to pick up on what you said about divisiveness. I find that really interesting. The Greens have been critiqued as being an uncompromising party. A lot of their members, including yourself, have had critiques leveled at them individually to say that they’re divisive, particularly female MPs. Can you respond to that, is there something generative in political ‘division’?
Lidia Thorpe
I think again because of the colonial structures that we’re all meant to be working in, if you don’t fit the mould that they’ve set, then you’re divisive. If you speak out about something, you’re being divisive. I’ve also been called a wrecker. When I first walked into the Victorian Parliament, one of the political parties head person said that I’m a wrecker, and that my party needed to be very careful. And I thought okay, I’m certainly not here to wreck things. I don’t wreck things. I question things. And that’s important. That’s what I’ve been raised to do, is question this oppressive system that we’ve had to live under and endure for 200 years. So I think divisive is also just another tactic that people use to shut down our voices.
I know of other Blak women that have been called ‘angry black women’ or divisive because they’ve simply questioned – quite respectfully questioned – why decisions have been made in a particular way, or why something has happened. So that’s water off a duck’s back for me because I hear it so often. The grassroots people who I’m connected to across this country know what I’m about. They know that I’m very far from being divisive and they know that I’m very good at bringing people together. That’s what I think the knockers out there are afraid of, is that I can bring people together. In fact, I want to bring this nation together. But not under this colonial, oppressive state. It’s got to be done in a way that people respect Country and respect one another. And we stamp out all of this injustice and inequality. I think we can do that. I think we have enough caring Australians here that would be prepared to go on that journey. So I think it’s more about their insecurity rather than any truth in me being divisive, or a wrecker, or troublemaker or all the other labels that I get.
Felicity Gray
And you’re obviously choosing to do this as a Greens senator. Why the Greens? Do they offer something in this space that other parties don’t?
Lidia Thorpe
So I did briefly flirt with Labor before I entered into politics. I was invited to Emily’s List, the women’s Labor program that they have to get more women into the Labor party. I had coffees with politicians, Labor politicians, and I’m still friends with some Labor politicians. But, they were once good. For me, they don’t stand for what they used to. And I think, you know, any party that takes corporate donations and does deals with mining companies, well, they’re automatically ruled out in my mind.
When I was chairing the Victorian NAIDOC committee, a politician turned up to the NAIDOC march, which I hadn’t seen before, any politician attending a NAIDOC march. This particular politician caught my eye, and I wanted to know who she was and what she stood for and why she was there. And that was Alex Bhathal. I had coffees with Alex, and I learned more about the Greens. And I said to her, wow, they care for all the things that I care for, and they stand for a lot of what I stand for. And that took place and made me feel more comfortable. I wasn’t completely comfortable with joining a political party, but I decided to after attending my first meeting, as an observer. It just aligned with my values, and it still does. We’re not perfect, we’re not pure as others would like to think when we get something wrong. We do stuff up every now and again, which is normal, but we learn from that and we fix that. It is my home and I hope that I get more Aboriginal people joining us and realising that the Greens are the choice for Aboriginal people given their care for Country, their care for people, and their priority around addressing inequality and climate change. But we also need to decolonise the Greens.
Felicity Gray
That that’s a nice lead in into my next question. Historically, the party was a product of the environmental movement and, both the movement more broadly and the Greens, have been criticised for failing to understand and perpetuating colonialism and racism. Obviously, there is a need to decolonise – what might that look like?
Lidia Thorpe
Well, it’s elevating First People’s voices, and it’s listening to what we have to say around caring for Country, and our animals, and decolonising a lot of the language that is used so that people can relate to us on another level. I did a project to decolonise the environment and climate movement and it was a lot around language, and it was a lot around having Aboriginal people self determining how they wanted their Country protected. And that was quite difficult for a lot of environment and climate groups to accept because they’ve kind of owned that space without having to have to deal with us too much and, to be basically told you have to step aside and you have to not just call us in to do the Welcome to Country, but you have to pay for the expert advice from First People who belong to the country that you want to do business on. Not just a token gesture. You have to pay like you pay all the other activists in your organisation, green activists. We should be valued just the same, if not more. And following the proper protocols about going on Country, understanding the rules of that Country and following the protocol. So that’s been received quite well so far in the work that I’ve done there.
That also fits with the Green agenda, in terms of the Greens party, in that when we when we talk about the Leadbeater’s possum and the fact that the Leadbeater’s possum is potentially going to become extinct because of logging, the Leadbeater’s possum is a Taungurung totem called the Wollert. And it’s got a beautiful story about it. So rather than call it the Leadbeater’s possum, which was named after a taxidermist, once upon a time, let’s decolonise and tell the story of the Wollert because it’s a beautiful story. And people will relate to that, they will connect to that, and they will know the Traditional Owners through that process. I just think through decolonising our language and telling it how we do, people are more likely to connect with it.
Felicity Gray
I’m excited to see how this manifests as you take up your role as a Senator as well, through your own politics but more broadly for what the Greens are talking about.
Lidia Thorpe
They’ve been very good. I mean, with us setting up the Blak Greens, that was my first meeting I’d ever attended, I was part of setting up the Blak Greens nationally. Two months ago, for the first time, we have two Blak Greens on the Greens National Council. We’ve achieved that. So we’re at the decision making level for the Greens nationally. And that’s quite historic.
Felicity Gray
Congratulations, that’s an achievement. I’ll ask one last question. What are you particularly excited about with your new role?
Lidia Thorpe
I’m excited to take the grassroots voice into a place where that voice has been denied since the establishment of that colonial structure. A Blak grassroots voice, which is what I bring, and who I’m connected to. I don’t come from a place of privilege, so to have the lived experiences that I’ve had and be able to take that voice in there, I think will certainly shake the place up, which is long overdue. It needs shaking up right now, and I believe that I’ll be the one to do it. Because I have the backing of my people. If I didn’t have the backing of my people, I wouldn’t have even taken this job on. So to have the backing of my people, that’s what I’m taking in.
Felicity Gray
I’m excited for the shake up. Thank you so much for talking to us. I really wish you luck in your new role.